Curse

RadaArashi · May 13, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

So its really more of what you'd prefer, a big AoE spike or a knock lock. I think I'd prefer [Splinter Weapon (PvE)], in PvE nothing except bosses should live that long enough for a knock lock to matter.

Because of your IAS + Locust's Fury, Splinter will run out really quickly, I'm guessing in about second and a half, doing roughly about 160 damage, then add in [Mark of Pain] and that amount will double. You don't need a human player to give you the weapon spell either, just a N/Rt Hero would do.

_Nihilist_ · May 13, 2009, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadaArashi

You don't need a human player to give you the weapon spell either, just a N/Rt Hero would do

This is why Splinter/Nightmare would be preferred for a person who runs H/H, H/H can't run PvE only skills. As far as having other players with you, it's still a toss-up on personal preference.

Bill Clinton · May 14, 2009, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

That means you really only have about a 25% chance to KD on your second attack.

Like I already said. That 25% is irrelevant because if they are knocked down, you dont need to hit it again. All the maths needs to know is that while the foe is standing you have a 50% chance to KD every second. (And even then i'm sure your maths is dogey as in practice they stay almost permanently on the ground.)
This equates to a Kd every other second, which is the same as with head butt but with way more damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadaArashi

So its really more of what you'd prefer, a big AoE spike or a knock lock. I think I'd prefer [Splinter Weapon (PvE)], in PvE nothing except bosses should live that long enough for a knock lock to matter.

No, its not about having either a massive AoE spike or a knocklock. [Mark of pain] is twenty times better than [splinter weapon] for the AoE, so if you want AoE, just use that. It wont run out after one and a half seconds and it hits all enemies adjacent rather than just three.

The argument is whether the massive Loss of DPS from headbutt is worth it for ''non-sloppy'' KD.
It should be a non-argument, for so many reasons already noted. And heres a new reason:
Newly buffed [strength of honor]

Paul Dawg · May 15, 2009, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Again, I fail to see why it's one or the other. As long as we're talking about the hypothetical skills that we want our party-mates or heroes to bring, why can't they bring [mark of pain] AND [splinter weapon (pve)]? One is a hex, the other a weapon spell. As I said about six pages ago, a single N/Rt could viably bring both of those skills.

Same goes for the newly-buffed [strength of honor (pve)]. That's an enchantment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

[Mark of pain] is twenty times better than [splinter weapon] for the AoE, so if you want AoE, just use that. It wont run out after one and a half seconds and it hits all enemies adjacent rather than just three.

The argument is whether the massive Loss of DPS from headbutt is worth it for ''non-sloppy'' KD.
It should be a non-argument, for so many reasons already noted. And heres a new reason:
Newly buffed [strength of honor]

Bill Clinton · May 15, 2009, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Again, I fail to see why it's one or the other. As long as we're talking about the hypothetical skills that we want our party-mates or heroes to bring, why can't they bring [mark of pain] AND [splinter weapon (pve)]? One is a hex, the other a weapon spell. As I said about six pages ago, a single N/Rt could viably bring both of those skills.

Same goes for the newly-buffed [strength of honor (pve)]. That's an enchantment.

Its one or the other because if you're using [great dwarf weapon] over [brawling headbutt] (which you should be, for reasons already argued), you cant use [splinter weapon] along with it.
[Mark of Pain] is only being mentioned because people QQ that you dont get aoe damage when using [great dwarf weapon] instead of [splinter weapon].

I mention the new buff to [strength of honor] as being another reason to not use [brawling headbutt] because the increased damage makes it even more loss of Dp when you stop to use [brawling headbutt].

Hope that answered your question.

Jaigoda · May 15, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Again, I fail to see why it's one or the other. As long as we're talking about the hypothetical skills that we want our party-mates or heroes to bring, why can't they bring [mark of pain] AND [splinter weapon (pve)]? One is a hex, the other a weapon spell. As I said about six pages ago, a single N/Rt could viably bring both of those skills.

Same goes for the newly-buffed [strength of honor (pve)]. That's an enchantment.

Because speccing into 3 or 4 attributes means all of them get weaker, and you have less skill slots anyway. A single necro (with no secondary) with 14-16 in Curses and 13 in SR could bring MoP and GDW, and you've got more damage and just as much AoE. Oh, and just as many KD's. Also, Splinter does not affect the foe you're attacking, and GDW is multiplied by Asuran Scan so it's actually more than 20 extra damage per hit, which equates to more than 50 DPS that you would have lost with Splinter. Another argument is that you need 10+ attribute points and two skill slots (one PvE) for the Splinter/BH option, whereas with GDW you need one PvE skill slot, and 0 attribute points invested.

So here's some maths: With Splinter Weapon at 10 Channeling, you will do 140 damage to each adjacent foe, with a recharge of 6 seconds. If two are bunched up, you hit one, which means 23.333.... DPS. If three are together, you hit two, meaning 46.666.... DPS. If four or more are bunched together (not really likely) you'll hit the max amount of targets with a DPS of 70. At 14 Channeling, you'll get the following numbers: 39.15 (1), 78.3 (2), and 117.5 (3).

For GDW: with max ranks, you deal exactly 35 damage per hit (Asuran Scan). With attack speed, that'll go to around 56 DPS. Plus, you should be able to maintain it on about 3 allies, which means up to 174 DPS over the three allies.

Even compared to someone with 14 in Channeling, GDW obviously comes out way ahead in DPS, with or without AoE, simply because it stays on the entire time. Also, since you'd be using BH, you're losing MORE DPS because you're taking .75 seconds to cast the freaking thing, when you could be doing about 100-150 damage instead. It's honestly a terrible comparison, and GDW is going to win out in just about every field.

And yeah, Bill got in before me. Everyone's telling you this, GDW is superior to any other option for LF.

Super Igor · May 16, 2009, 01:34 PM // 13:34

BH is inferiour to GDW when someone casts it on you I already explained why but butthurt carebears probably removed it...oh well. :P

BH is good as an unconditional kd when you solo but when someone casts [great dwarf weapon] on you take [asuran scan] instead of it, you are going to kd often anyway, enough to do the job but also get some very saxay dommages.

Paul Dawg · May 16, 2009, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Three or four attributes? I count two: channeling for [splinter weapon (pve)] and curses for [mark of pain]. And you don't really need more than 10 channeling for [splinter weapon (pve)] anyway. Best of all, you can get a hero to cast [splinter weapon] on you. Heroes can't do [great dwarf weapon].

I really want to get out of this thread because we're just going around in circles--but then everytime I do, someone goes and makes some kind of inaccurate statement about the skills, and I get roped back in... But seriously, at this point everyone reading the thread knows enough to decide for themselves what route they want to take.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Because speccing into 3 or 4 attributes means all of them get weaker

Jaigoda · May 16, 2009, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Three or four attributes? I count two: channeling for [splinter weapon (pve)] and curses for [mark of pain]. And you don't really need more than 10 channeling for [splinter weapon (pve)] anyway. Best of all, you can get a hero to cast [splinter weapon] on you. Heroes can't do [great dwarf weapon].

I count at least 3. You forgot to include Soul Reaping. But the point I was trying to make was that you have to spread your attributes more with Splinter (10 in an attribute for one skill?), for less effect overall. Anyway, a 10-spec Splinter is actually gonna do less damage than GDW no matter how you look at it. The only excuse is if you're using H/H, but this isn't even really H/H material anyway. This is more for a big player group, since the most important things are PvE skills (EBSoH, GDW, Asuran Scan, Possibly "DT!"). The only time this will ever be superior to MS>DB is when things die too fast to actually get to Moebius, which means you have to load up with tons of buffs so you kill things ultra fast.

riktw · May 16, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

well, strengh and honor buffs helps a lot, +25 damage is almost +50 DPS.

Bill Clinton · May 17, 2009, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Three or four attributes? I count two: channeling for [splinter weapon (pve)] and curses for [mark of pain]. And you don't really need more than 10 channeling for [splinter weapon (pve)] anyway. Best of all, you can get a hero to cast [splinter weapon] on you. Heroes can't do [great dwarf weapon].

I really want to get out of this thread because we're just going around in circles--but then everytime I do, someone goes and makes some kind of inaccurate statement about the skills, and I get roped back in... But seriously, at this point everyone reading the thread knows enough to decide for themselves what route they want to take.

You still fail to provide a decent argument against the fact that a splinter weapon hero/player has to CONSTANTLY spam splinter weapon on one target just to keep it up some of the time. This limits the hero to be spamming one skill the entire time for any half-decent effect. Whereas a simple [mark of pain] achieves this and more, without the spam.
Now you might argue that [mark of pain] is useless because if the hexed foe dies, you lose the AoE. But at least you've got a hero who can use now [barbs][order of pain] and such to keep pushing up the DPS.

Simply: [great dwarf weapon] > [brawling headbutt] because you can use [mark of pain] for AoE which is greater than [splinter weapon] anyway.

RadaArashi · May 22, 2009, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Well with the Strength of Honor buff I'd personally rather /Mo over /Rt, with Asuran Scan you can deal pretty sick damage if you spam Dodge This. I was wondering what'd be the accompanying hero for this, I was thinking Mo/N with something along the lines of Smiter's Boon, Barbs, Mark of Pain, Reversal of Damage, Strenght of Honor, Castigation Signet.

ll BLADEZ ll · May 31, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

i just tried the conjour weapon/locust fury sin with Strength of Honour on me and its amazing. i can hit 100-125dmg every hit and i hit twice every second. awesome. if u play alongside a SY warrior or paragon ur armour is so high you dont die at all either. im just gona try playing with an orders necro and great dwarf weapon=) you can kill anything, even high armour warriors VERY fast. i personally drop critical defences cos of the massive armour boost of SY (as i always play with a firend using it) and find using "i am the strongest" is fun as it buffs up your first few hits enabling you to take out a mok in under 2 seconds and a warrior very quikly.

Moloch Vein · May 31, 2009, 07:04 PM // 19:04

I recommend OoV for a LC build if you can get away with it, adrenaline-wise. OoV has the very distinct advantage of slashing through damage reducing spells like Stoneflesh Aura. It's also pretty goddamn insane healing.

Paul Dawg · Jun 01, 2009, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Ummm...what's OoV?

snaek · Jun 01, 2009, 03:45 PM // 15:45

[order of the vampire]

riktw · Jun 01, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

order of the vampire

Paul Dawg · Jun 01, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Well yes, of course that would be a killer boost on a bar like this.

ac0okiemonst3r · Jun 01, 2009, 09:50 PM // 21:50

this is on wiki; it got vetted as "not favored" (garbage, in other words) but it looks like it works. but the DS+"SY!" is better b/c A. war's have naturally more armor and buffs, but sins have blocking. so, choice is the players.